As I (and my internal family) were no longer permitted to write emails to H (if we did the therapy would be over), We did write this email to her at the weekend.
Client: Is my therapy finished?
H: I think you know the answer to that. I think you know what I said to you. That the only way that we could continue with therapy was if there weren’t emails and phone calls.
Client: So you are saying my therapy is over now?
H: I'm saying that we have to work towards an ending because –
Client: Hold on a minute, you are actually telling me my therapy is over now?
H: No, I'm saying. Yes, I'm saying, that we have to work towards an ending.
Client: You have been encouraging me for four years to, I wasn’t even able to phone before, you have been encouraging me for four years to phone you.
H: No I haven’t been encouraging you.
Client: Yes you have. You said to me “even if you just phone and say-
H: In emergencies.
Client: Yes.
H: Not to abuse
Client: I'm not abusing you H
H: And to control. Oh yes! I have said that because of what has happened recently and the abusive nature of the phone calls and emails
Client: You still don’t know what is going on here, do you.
H: I know exactly what is going on.
Client: Then tell me what is going on. What is it that I am doing that is so abusive.
H: What was going on when I went away, the increase, the more I have showed any kindness and compassion the more –
Client: You didn’t show any kindness and compassion, you left me without support.
H: Yes, and that is exactly right.
Client: So you didn’t show me kindness and compassion then.
H: I'm not going to get into this because we have spoken about it and you know what I have said
Client: Well, I want to get into this. Because it is unfair to allow my different parts and me to email and telephone you and then all of a sudden threaten me with the end of my therapy if I do it again. That’s unfair and cruel.
H: It is actually cruel to continue.
Client: You don’t even compromise –
H: There isn’t room to compromise.
Client: No H you’re wrong.
H: Well I may be wrong but I'm telling you –
Client: But you’ve had enough.
H: No, I have had enough of the abuse
Client: Yes, you have had enough of working with me.
H: No
Client: Yes and that is why you did it on purpose because you know damn well that there is more than me. And you
know about the others well. That they are attached to you. Can I please finish? You know that there are others, you know that they are attached to you so you say if you phone me again the therapy will be over. Now you are putting them and me in a double bind. Because you know damn well that somewhere along the line someone is going to phone. Somewhere along the line, you know that. Because it happened for four years. And you know that somewhere along the line they are going to write an email. So you say, if you do that –
H: Who wrote the email M?
Client: What are you telling me now?
H: I'm asking you who wrote the email?
Client: Right, ok. This is where this is going.
H: No. I'm asking you
Client: I know exactly where this is going. Can you actually see how abusive you are? Can you actually see what you are doing here?
H: I'm holding a boundary X.
Client: No, it’s not about the boundary. It’s the threat. I don’t mind the boundary. You are not working with the boundary. You don’t know what that means to me. You are not working with that are you? You are telling me therapy is over. Well, I don’t mind the boundaries if you would work with that. What that means for me. You don’t even care about what that means to me. You said to me now, therapy is over.
H: I said we need to work towards an ending.
Client: You want to end the therapy and you were looking for a way out. Because you are a coward.
H: I'm not looking for a way out.
Client: That’s why, you’re a coward. That’s what you are. And you are actually fucking damn abusive right now. For four years you let this unfold, its unfolding the way it should, and now all of a sudden, just like M, “I can’t deal with it anymore. Go away!” You are actually worse than M at least M had the guts to say it but you can’t. You do it in an underhanded way saying “if you phone me again the therapy will be over.” At least M didn’t do that. You are a coward! And you still don’t know what is going on. And I'm supposed to feel safe here. With your threat in the back of my head. If I ever do this and if I ever do that then the therapy will be over. You want me to basically start afresh, like we have never had a therapy before, like I have just come to your office for the first time, there have been no emails no phone calls, that would have been fine. But actually we have got a history. And you just seem to forget about all this. It’s like you are doing it on purpose. You put this boundary in place because you knew that somewhere along the line, because you know me by now, after four years. You knew that I wasn’t able to do that without working with what that means, without helping, without putting something else in place, which you haven’t either. You just totally withdrawn it and hope that I would use it and then you could say “now therapy is over”. You are really nasty. And you call me abusive! Next thing you are going to tell me the email I sent you was abusive! It’s about control isn’t it. You don’t like to be controlled. That’s what it’s about. Tell me what I have done that was so abusive. Tell me I want to know, I have asked you before. And you couldn’t tell me. I want to know what I have done that abused you so terribly that you have to end my therapy. What have I done, I have a right to know. Please tell me!
H: I have told you before.
Client: Please tell me I need to know.
H: I'm not going to go through it again.
Client: You can’t tell me. You haven’t told me before.
H: The emails that were there before. They were abusive and controlling. And I'm not going to go through --
Client: What emails? You haven’t told me.
H: I have told you
Client: No you haven’t
H: I have
Client: No you haven’t
H: I have
Client: You haven’t told me, tell me.
H: The emails that you sent, the abuse in the emails.
Client: What abuse?
H: Read the emails that you sent to me X. I’m not going to go through it.
Client: I deserve to know. You are telling me my therapy is over. I have to know what was abusive.
H: Read the emails that you sent to me.
Client: I'm telling you I don’t know.
H: Well then you need to read them. You need to read the emails.
Client: No, you need to tell me.
H: No, I don’t need to tell you anything.
Client: Yes you do.
H: I have told you .
Client: You need to tell me.
H: You can’t hear me anyway.
Client: I can. Don’t look for excuse not to tell me. I can hear you loud and clear.
H: The emails where you have told me repeatedly , the last lot of emails, that I did not support you, that I
had no feelings, that I was heartless I was cruel I was cold, Oh I don’t know, just a list of all the things that I am not.
That I have done wrong. That I can’t do. That I am, I don’t know I can’t even begin to tell you.
Client: No keep going. I want to know.
H: Well then read the emails.
Client: So that’s abusive yes?
H: Yes. Oh I can’t remember –
Client: You need to remember because this is fucking important to me, this is the end of my therapy. I need to know what I did that was so abusive.
H: Then read the emails
Client: I can read the emails and I still can’t see
H: They were controlling, bullying and abusive.
Client: You can’t do it can you.
H: I'm not going to go through all this
Client: I need to know, you need to tell me what was abusive.
H: I told you that your emails are controlling, bullying and abusive.
Client: In what way? Because I tell you that I don’t feel supported by you? And I feel supported by others? Are you listening to yourself?
H: Yes, well you can’t-
Client: It’s your feeling. This is supposed to happen; I’m supposed to tell you these things.
H: No you’re not! No you’re not supposed to abuse and bully.
Client: I'm not abusing you.
H: You are. You abuse and bully and control.
Client: No I'm not.
H: And I am happy to work with that in the sessions. I was happy to.
Client: No you were not. I'm not controlling you.
H: Yes! It’s bullying and controlling.
Client: No.
H: You don’t know because –
Client: I know!
H: Because the inside world – you are controlled and bullied –
Client: Fuck off
H: No!
Client: Inside world! Suddenly when it suits you there is an inside world. And when it doesn’t suit you “Why are you
phoning?” Suddenly the inside world has totally disappeared. And all the “others” they have disappeared as well. “Why are you phoning me, you know what that means the therapy is over now!” When for 4 years you let me. You encouraged it even. You encouraged it. Because I remember you saying it is better if you phone even if you just phone and say “help” and I call you back. It is better than the emails. You even encouraged it because I wasn’t even able to do it.
H: I didn’t encourage you to phone up and tell me “you are a liar H, you are hiding. I know you are there,
pick up.” That is bullying, controlling and abusive and I will not have it.
Client: Ok, so I can understand that this feels controlling and abusive. I totally understand that but that comes with the territory.
H: No it doesn’t.
Client: Yes it does.
H: No! I'm sorry X it doesn’t, not in my book.
Client: No, obviously not in your book. Obviously not. God knows what is in your books. You know, I understand that
this is frightening and –
H: No it’s not frightening! It’s not frightening!
Client: Well why are you acting like this then?
H: Because I do not want to be bullied. Or abused or controlled.
Client: You can’t look beyond. You encouraged it, you created it with me.
H: No I did not.
Client: Yes you did.
H: I said when you need help not when you need to abuse.
Client: So this is the first time this has happened now? Is that what you are telling me that this is the first time that
you felt abused?
H: No, it’s not the first time that I felt abused.
Client: Well you never told me that before. You never told me before “this needs to stop” now all of a sudden you tell
me this needs to stop or the therapy is over. Why didn’t you tell me before?
H: I told you before, I told you then, if this happens anymore then the therapy is over.
Client: You told me after your break when you came back and said no more emails
H: Exactly! Absolutely!
Client: Stop speaking like that.
H: Absolutely that’s exactly right!
Client: Stop speaking like that.
H: So I'm not allowed to –
Client: No, you don’t even know what you sound like.
H: Well I'm trying to get a word in-
Client: You are not trying anything. You are trying to get rid of me. And that was all planned. Because you know
damn well that—
H: You seem to have all the answers.
Client: I'm looking at the facts. You don’t need to be intelligent to look at facts. Fact is that I have been emailing you
and telephoning you for four years---
H: You broke the boundary
Client: No, I broke your threats!
H: It wasn’t a threat.
Client: Yes it was. You didn’t […] that with me, I didn’t agree to that. I didn’t agree with that. You put a threat down
and said if you phone one more time therapy is over. I never agreed to it and you never discussed with me how it feels for me. It was a threat, you threatened me H. You whiter than white person….. you are obviously feeling such extreme feelings that you don’t feel able to think straight you don’t feel able to sit down and say to me “we need to find a compromise” Either you don’t want to and you totally want out and you don’t even want to be bothered anymore –
H: There isn’t a compromise with the boundary. I made that very clear last time X. In the sessions we could have done, whatever, --
Client: You cannot expect from anyone especially from someone who suffers from the thing you tell me I suffer from, to suddenly “Ok no more emails and no more phone calls” when it has been like this for four years and everyone will agree with me on that.
H: When you put your complaint in then you will be able to do that.
Client: You don’t get it do you. And this is another fear of yours isn’t it? You are just fucking scared of me.
H: I'm not scared of you.
Client: Yes you are H, you are scared. And because you can’t even admit that you are scared you are acting out nonstop. You can’t even see what you are doing. If I was phoned up by someone and they said this I would be scared. And I would feel pissed off, so why aren’t you scared.
H: I wouldn’t be able to tell you that.
Client: There is the problem isn’t it.
H: Obviously.
Client: The problem is all with me isn’t it, because I'm abusive. But I tell you what, you always said “the abuser the abuser” and now the abuser is there and the abuser doesn’t always work the same way you want them to work. They don’t actually keep to boundaries and things like that. It’s because of how you worked with me that and how I trusted you that we were able to get to that place. And now you are telling me this is not acceptable anymore. Instead of saying, we need to find some boundaries, I totally agree with you! But we need to look together how to do it and what's best for the whole and what's best for you and me and the whole of the system. But nothing. Nothing like (17.16 switch) that. “and if you put your complaint in” this is all you are worried about isn’t it… You don’t give a shit about my therapy now and how I feel.
H: I do give a shit about it because that is why I was trying to save it. I was trying to save it because that is the only way we could continue.
Client: H are you trying to tell me that you were trying to safe my therapy by telling me that I’m not allowed to email and phone otherwise --- no – there are two things here going on. Now, the boundaries of not emailing and phoning fine. But then there is a parallel thing going on, the threat of you do, therapy will be over. Why can you not say no more emails no more phone calls this is how it needs to be, why did you feel the need to threaten me?
H: Because that is how it was.
Client: Because you felt threatened.
H: No, because I was telling you how it was.
Client: What kind of answer is that “how it was?”
H: Because this is the boundary of the therapy that I am putting in place. It is the boundary of therapy that I have considered therapeutically was the only way the therapy could continue.
Client: Right by telling me the therapy will finish. You never even said to me “I don’t want any emails or phone calls anymore.”
H: I did, I made it very clear. I wasn’t going to accept any more emails and phone calls and if there were any we would have to work towards an ending.
Client: Yes exactly. That’s what I’m saying. What I mean is, why could you not just say there are no more emails and no more phone calls?”
H: Because I didn’t.
Client: I know that’s what you didn’t and I'm asking you why.
H: Because that’s what I did
Client: Why? Why did you feel the need to threaten me?
H: Because that was the only way I felt therapy could continue.
Client: No you are lying.
H: I was being honest
Client: That’s the only way that YOU could continue.
H: Yes exactly
Client: Yes it’s not the therapy. You. That’s the only way YOU could continue.
H: There is no therapy without me.
Client: I know, but then own it. And don’t say that’s the only way the therapy can work. Because it isn’t. because you
can only work like that. It is the only way YOU can work.
H: The only way I am prepared to work.
Client: Yes, you.
H: Yes, me.
Client: It sounds a bit different to –this is the only way this therapy can work.
H: It is exactly the same outcome.
Client: You are doing the wrong thing H
H: Well that may be so but it is the only thing that was possible to do.
Client: And I remember telling you you want to destroy me
H: I didn’t want to destroy you
Client: And I said to you as soon as I will tell you something nice you will want to destroy it. And I remember you say “I don’t want to destroy it” and as soon as I told you about my clients it went downhill. It has come that far now, from you sending me emails with the scanned pictures of toby and saying nice things
H: That’s the thing I had to offer you and it was abused –
Client: So you were still ok then. And then suddenly, it was the phone call wasn’t it, and the emails during the break, that tipped you over the edge.
H: That was the final straw. Yep. Absolutely. That’s exactly right. That is exactly right.
Client: Yes. So you didn’t act but you re-acted. And you said “well, I feel threatened, so I will threaten you as well.
H: No
Client: Yes
H: No, it wasn’t. I am not going to tolerate this anymore.
Client: And that is ok, but why did you feel the need to threaten me with the end of my therapy? Because you felt powerless that’s why! And you wanted to feel powerful!
H: It was because I was putting a boundary in place that was realistic –
Client: It wasn’t realistic. I have different parts. I have different parts. This is not realistic. It is not realistic
H: It is all that is available.
Client: You are deluded.
H: Well that may be so
Client: You are forgetting something.
H: You choose to believe that.
Client: You are forgetting that there are different parts of me. This is not therapeutic because there are different parts of me and they will phone or email or do whatever
H: Well if there is no body there who can help to contain that then I cannot do that on my own
Client: Yes I totally agree with you. That would be really nice. But you think threatening me with the end of my therapy will actually –
H: I haven’t threatened—
Client: Can I please finish—
H: It’s not a threat
Client: H, you are not getting it. To tell me that you are not going to see me anymore if you ever receive an email or phone call again is a threat. If we just started therapy and this is how it worked fair enough, but we haven’t, we
have history. 4 years of phone calls and emails.
Client: What I’m saying is, you have never actually told me, like you telling me now, this needs to stop. We need to find a way—
H: I did!
Client: No you didn’t!
H: I told you last time that this is how it has to be
Client: You told me last time when? When you came back from the break?
H: Yes.
Client: Yes, that is the first time I heard of that. And what I’m trying to tell you is why did you not tell me before, because it obviously bothered you before from what you are telling me now, so why did you not tell me before hence why did you not instead of threatening me, try to find a way with me together of stopping this or doing something else or different? Why?
H: Because I did it the way that I did it
Client: Yes and this is what I mean you didn’t do it right. And because you didn’t do it right this is the end of my therapy. Because of you H.
H: It was me all along. I haven’t been doing anything right for months.
Client: And this is my repeat! This is from my childhood!
H: Yup!
Client: This is from me, this belongs to me!
H: Hmhm!
Client: Not you.
H: Right.
Client: This is mine.
H: Aha and, yes
Client: And you are making it yours.
H: No I’m not.
Client: Yes you are! “I'm trying to support you so much but nothing I ever do is good enough!” That’s how I felt as a
child, H! It was too much! But you, like you said, you are right, you can change it now, you can put boundaries in, I wasn’t able to do that but you can. But this is my stuff. This is my feeling what you are feeling.
H: 25.18 I understand entirely, I can see why you are so hurt and angry I’m not blind to it
Client: Why am I angry?....These are my feelings. This is my madness. This is my threats this is my pain, this is mine. And you are feeling it but this belongs to me. This is mine and you just made it all about you. And leave me with this now.
H: It wasn’t my choice to leave you with it.
Client: You are wrong. Every single time I get to this point therapists leave. Because they can’t take the feelings. The feelings!
H: Yes, I think you are probably right. I am really sorry that it had to come to this.
Client: This is like, you don’t even want to fight
H: I have no more fight. I tried I have really, really tried and I’m really sorry.
Client: You want to get rid of me
H: No I don’t
Client: You do, this is too much. It is too much for me. And you are just leaving me with it now. This is what happens to me.
H: I know it is and that’s what so tragic and I was trying to avoid.
Client: But you are trying to avoid it by threatening to end the therapy.
H: Because it’s not working. It can’t work like this.
Client: Then we need to find a different way.
H: We can only find a way in the sessions
Client: Yes I agree but you can’t just expect it all to stop. When it’s been like that for 4 years. Give me a chance!
H: If I give you a chance will you stick to it? Will you be able to in all seriousness? Really? Do you really think you can? Do you really think you can work in the sessions?
Client: Why do you suddenly forget about the others now?
H: Do YOU and those who are able to be so vocal, do you think you will be able to contain it during breaks and weekends because that is what is going to have to happen. It is the only way.
Client: This is mine
H: Yes I know it is and I can’t take it away. And I can’t become the same.
Client: Don’t make it yours then.
H: No I won’t make it mine.
Client: This feeling useless and hopeless and nothing is good enough, that’s mine.
H: Yes that’s yours.
Client: This is my stuff
H: I know it is yours.
Client: So don’t take it so personal.
H: I don’t but you try to give it to me.
Client: Yes of course I am.
H: Absolutely! But I’m not taking it on board.
Client: That’s fine but that doesn’t mean that, this is what I do,--
H: I know! And it has to stop! And if I don’t stop it you will never be able to stop it.
Client: Wow, that’s nice, isn’t it.
H: If I don’t stop it, You won’t be able to stop it.
Client: What does that tell me?
H: I don’t know.
Client: It tells me that you don’t actually believe that I can work with you together to find some kind of way.
H: If you can work in the sessions with me we have a chance. If you can work in the sessions. But I will not
and I repeat I will not be controlled outside of the sessions. And that is that. And it has to be that way. It absolutely has to be that way. You can bring anything to the session. You can bring anything at all. But it has to be in the session. You can bring any sort of writing that you like to the session. It can be as abusive as you like to the session. But it can’t work any other way.
Client: Stop calling me abusive.
H: X, I’m not calling you abusive as such and you know that. You know!
Client: Don’t tell me what I know.
H: You know! We have talked about it.
Client: Because I don’t know anything about you anymore.
H: I'm not talking about me I’m talking about you.
Client: Yes, but the things you have said before in the past, you know what I’m talking about, I don’t know what you are talking about, I don’t know you anymore. I don’t. I don’t know you. I used to trust you and you might not believe it but because we trusted you that all this happened.
H: Yes I know there was trust exactly but the trust was hated by the bully and the abuser inside, hated it. Has to be in control, well it is not going to control me! I will not be controlled!
Client: Neither will X, neither will other people, but they don’t threaten me like that.
H: Well this is the, I’m not threatening, I won’t be controlled with emails and phone calls and they are used to control.
Client: That’s ok, I don’t want that either, but other people don’t want to be controlled by me either but they don’t threaten me with going away.
H: I’m not talking about other people
Client: Why does it feel impossible to you to talk to me and find a way together?
H: Because there isn’t another way. I am telling you how it is. For me, for this therapy, for me your therapist. I will not be controlled with emails and phone calls it has got to such a stage that it cannot continue, the therapy cannot continue if that continues. The therapy can continue if that doesn’t continue. And I made that very clear and I’m stating it again.
Client: I hear you but we are not meeting in the middle because I can hear you but --
H: There is no middle!
Client: Exactly that’s the problem, because you are not hearing MY point.
H: I have tried along the way. I started off saying, no emails, I didn’t hold that boundary, that was my mistake. Because I thought, no let me try this, this is important. This is really important. But it didn’t work. Because it got pushed further and further and further and further and further. And that will not continue.
Client: That didn’t happen because of emails.
H: Well it happened because of no boundaries.
Client: Yes! But it didn’t happen because of emails.
H: But it happened because of no boundaries.
Client: This is my issue what I need to work with.
H: Well I have told you how I can work with it. I have tried different ways, I have tried to accommodate, and what I have discovered, is that it is not possible. For me. It is not possible for me to work in that way. I can work in the sessions with you but I cannot work outside of the sessions in an unlimited way. It is not possible for me. I can’t speak for anybody else.
Client: I hear that. Shame I had to waste four years of my life for you to find that out. Because it took you 4 years to realise that you weren’t able to work with that, which means I now have to look for a new therapist. In my training.
H: I’m very, very sorry for that. This is most certainly not what I have wanted.
Client: I can understand that it feels abusive when I phone and say these things which I can’t even remember. That sounds threatening and abusive and I can understand that and I totally agree with that and it shouldn’t be happening and I would like it to stop too but then to say all the other things, like I support you so much but you are telling me I’m not, this is what it’s about -
H: 38.26 In the sessions yes, but not in emails. Not in emails, no. Emails and phone calls were there for help
Client: So basically what you are saying is, it is not what I am saying that is abusive but it is emails and phone calls
that are abusive?
H: I am telling you that I will not be controlled outside of sessions.
Client: Yes! Can we move away from this --
H: No! We are not moving away from this!
Client: Yes I need to move away from this to see what is underneath that. What's this about. You will not be controlled, I can hear you. And I just said to you, I don’t agree with that phone call either, and I wouldn’t like that either. And I would actually like to stop that too because actually there is a lot of shame and humiliation in that. So I would really not like to do that again. So instead of looking for a way to fix that with me together, you decided to do it on your own.
H: Yeah! I am telling you, that is the only way we can work
Client: Yes you are telling me.
H: And maybe you know, if you really, REALLY want to try, and continue to not email and call, maybe there
is a chance we could do something with this. But not, not, if there are going to be emails and phone calls.
Client: What happens to you when you get emails and phone calls?
H: I am not even going to answer that! I am telling you –
Client: I think it is important.
H: It may be –
Client: Why do you think I want to know that?
H: I am telling you, that I am not going to work
Client: I can hear you
H: And that’s a fact.
Client: I would just like to know what happens to you when you get emails and phone calls.
H: Well I don’t think that’s your affair. I’m telling you that it’s not something that I’m going to
Client: I'm not asking you because I want to get a sadistic pleasure out of hearing you suffer, I’m asking this, because this is about me. And what it was like for me as a child. I’m trying to find out what happened to me.
H: That is something that we can talk about and work with but I’m –
Client: Yes I would like to talk about that now
H: Right, ok
Client: That’s why I’m asking you what happens to you when you get emails and phone calls like that
H: You know, in a sense, I guess, in a way, it is a question you don’t even have to ask. If it happened to you as a child then you know—
Client: I have no memory of this. You know that! H what is going on with you? What the hell is happening here?
H: You just told me, this is mine!!
Client: Yes because I read stuff!! I read stuff!!
H: So you don’t need me to tell you.
Client: I know that what you are feeling belongs to me, this is from my past. But WHAT you are feeling I don’t know. And I need to know.
H: I told you, abused, bullied and controlled. I have told you. And no you didn’t have a choice as a child. Absolutely you didn’t. There was nothing you could have done and this is truly horrendous and it should never have been but it isn’t going to help you to be able to do it here. The only way it is going to help you if you are not able to do it here.
Client: It’s very cognitive isn’t it?
H: No its not
Client: Yes it is, it is very much saying, you need to stop this now.
H: It is the only way if anything is going to help you. If you are allowed to continue it it is just the other side of the coin. It is just your own abuse being continued. And it is not therapeutic—
Client: But H, you seem to think that I don’t want the boundaries. You seem to think that I don’t agree with the boundaries but I’m not talking about that I’m talking about the threat you have made. You don’t seem to see the impact this has. This is a huge rupture.
H: I know it is a huge thing.
Client: It is a rupture. And it was that sentence that finished my therapy off.
H: It could either finish the therapy off or it could actually might be the one thing that might make it therapeutic. There are two ways it could go.
Client: There is a third way. I could come here and finish my training and pretend to work. Like I did all these years before I came here. This is another way this could go but then again I shouldn’t really say this because then you will tell me if that is the case you have to find another therapist.
H: No, it’s your therapy to use how you choose. In the framework of the therapy. If you choose not to work you don’t have to work. I’m saying to you the thing that will end the therapy are the emails and phone calls out side of the therapy sessions. Not what happens in them.
Client: No, what will end the therapy is you H. You will end the therapy.
H: No, it will be not me, it will be you breaking the boundary.
Client: No it’s you because, what are you doing with the 4 years where I have been doing this?
I'm using them 4 years with the hope that you will be able to use this boundaried therapy now
Client: What just now?
H: Yup, just now. Because you are doing a counselling course
Client: See and there you have it.
H: No, it’s not there I have it, but actually there is something going on here, that can be controlled out there but not here.
Client: This is where it happens, here. This is beyond me
H: Not out of the sessions.
Client: You, the one I do the work with, I don’t do the work with other people, there will be a totally different attachment towards you, a totally different view towards you than to other people outside
H: Yup! And in the sessions, in the sessions.
Client: Just answering your questions, your statement basically about why are you doing a counselling course. Why is it possible that I’m doing out there and not in here.
H: No I’m saying there are more people there to help contain. If there is someone help contain the counselling training and can see client there is someone there who has an ability to contain some big thoughts and feelings that have to be contained there. They can be contained between sessions if you really want to use this therapy. And we can work with what goes on, you can bring it to the sessions.
Client: Ok, I see now. That’s why when I told you about seeing clients it went downhill. And I was quite right when I told you about seeing clients that’s when it went downhill. Because then suddenly you went “hold on a minute, if she is seeing clients then she is not that bad. Obviously she can do without the emails and obviously she can do without the phone calls.”
H: No it was not that at all. And it absolutely was not that!
Client: Yes it was
H: No!
Client: It was.
H: You can interpret it that way if you like but that is not how it is.
Client: You just told me! You just told me that if there is someone there who can contain other people --
H: I didn’t say that, I said then there is a hope!
Client: Yes a hope! But you are treating me now like this is a fact
H: So how would we know? We need to put it to the test.
Client: Yes exactly! But you are not putting it to the test you---
H: I am!
Client: I totally agree with you we need to put it to the test –
H: I am putting it to the test!
Client: We need to put it to the test with some support but not with a threat, saying “we are putting it to the test now and if it doesn’t work, you are out of here”
H: That’s how it is!
Client: Do you actually know how you just said that? You said that in a really sadistic way. Like you gain pleasure, you are gaining pleasure from this.
H: Absolutely not.
Client: Yes, you are. You are. “Yes absolutely right! That’s exactly how it is!” you should listen to yourself you gain pleasure from this I’m telling you. Have you ever asked yourself what kind of role you are playing in this? Who you represent here for me? What you are repeating for me? This is not a patronizing question I’m just trying to, I’m really interested. Because to me it seems like you don’t even consider this to be some kind of repeat.
H: Everything is a repeat! Everything is a repeat!
Client: So what is it that you are doing that is a repeat for me? What is that, who are you?
H: Well I don’t know, you know that better than I do.
Client: No I'm not. I want to know.
H: Well, I don’t know! How do I know who I am for you right now? How can I know that?
Client: You never wondered? I mean you… you…!!
H: It must be very frustrating to feel you have to teach your therapist everything to know.
Client: No, this is not what this is about. I don’t see you as, I just want to to be honest with me.
H: I have been as honest as I can be.
Client: And when I ask you a question I don’t ask you a question because I want to trip you up or I want to make you feel a certain way, I’m asking –
H: Everything gets turned around and turned around
Client: I'm asking you have you ever wondered what you represent to me
H: Of course I have!
Client: What's that then?
H: I don’t know! I can only imagine.
Client: But this is a very big thing going on here. You are doing something. I'm doing something. Who are you?
H: I'm doing something that has to be done.
Client: That’s on one level. On one logical level I agree with that. We agreed with that now.
H: I’m not sure we have agreed with it
Client: I have agreed with it ok. So now let’s look underneath it. Who are you? Who are you by doing this? Who are you to me?
H: I'm not going to get into this right now.
Client: Why not?
H: Because there is not a negotiated thinking, there is an attacking.
Client: I need to know
H: You need to attack.
Client: No I’m asking you a question. Because I’m desperate.
H: No you are attacking.
Client: No I’m not attacking you. I'm asking you who are you for me?
H: Right now I don’t know because it is impossible to think for me in here because the attacks are coming hard and fast.
Client: Yes, and that is mine too.
H: That’s yours! Everything is yours!
Client: That’s exactly how it was for me.
H: That may well be how it was for you and I am not going to tolerate it.
Client: And you doing this to me, putting threats
H: I'm not going to tolerate the abuse that you did.
Client: And you threating me is—
H: No I’m telling you how it is.
Client: I agree with you, you shouldn’t be tolerating this I’m not saying you should you just don’t hear me. What I’m saying is about the threat and what that represents for me.
H: I understand that it must be excruciating I do but I can’t soften it with anything because that is how it is.
Client: Gosh you know H, “soften” that doesn’t actually go with you.
H: No of course not.
Client: You are just really harsh and cold.
H: I know that is how you experience me right now.
Client: No, because there would have been so many other ways to do this.
H: If I would have been harsh and cold this would have never have happened in the first place.
Client: You are telling me that I am turning everything around and actually you are mind fucking me too
H: I'm not mind fucking you at all, I am being very, very clear. Anything can happen in the sessions there
will be no contact outside the sessions.
Client: We got this now yes, with the boundaries yes.
H: Well then we have something we can work with if that can be held.
Client: But how are you going to work with that?
H: Time is going to tell. We have to see how we work with it, we can’t work with it in two minutes. We are going to have to find that out.
Client: If you refuse to tell me how you feel, because I need that to understand what's going on, --
H: I’m not going to be bullied and cajoled into it!
Client: There you go again! Bullying you! Everything I say is me bullying you!
H: Actually, there is quite an attack going on right at this minute and I understand why but also it means that I can’t respond in a way that I might do in other circumstances.
Client: Only because you can’t do that, doesn’t mean that I’m a bully.
H: Ok, maybe that is the case.
Client: Is my therapy finished now or not?
H: I said that we can talk about this some more so why don’t we just –
END
Client: Is my therapy finished?
H: I think you know the answer to that. I think you know what I said to you. That the only way that we could continue with therapy was if there weren’t emails and phone calls.
Client: So you are saying my therapy is over now?
H: I'm saying that we have to work towards an ending because –
Client: Hold on a minute, you are actually telling me my therapy is over now?
H: No, I'm saying. Yes, I'm saying, that we have to work towards an ending.
Client: You have been encouraging me for four years to, I wasn’t even able to phone before, you have been encouraging me for four years to phone you.
H: No I haven’t been encouraging you.
Client: Yes you have. You said to me “even if you just phone and say-
H: In emergencies.
Client: Yes.
H: Not to abuse
Client: I'm not abusing you H
H: And to control. Oh yes! I have said that because of what has happened recently and the abusive nature of the phone calls and emails
Client: You still don’t know what is going on here, do you.
H: I know exactly what is going on.
Client: Then tell me what is going on. What is it that I am doing that is so abusive.
H: What was going on when I went away, the increase, the more I have showed any kindness and compassion the more –
Client: You didn’t show any kindness and compassion, you left me without support.
H: Yes, and that is exactly right.
Client: So you didn’t show me kindness and compassion then.
H: I'm not going to get into this because we have spoken about it and you know what I have said
Client: Well, I want to get into this. Because it is unfair to allow my different parts and me to email and telephone you and then all of a sudden threaten me with the end of my therapy if I do it again. That’s unfair and cruel.
H: It is actually cruel to continue.
Client: You don’t even compromise –
H: There isn’t room to compromise.
Client: No H you’re wrong.
H: Well I may be wrong but I'm telling you –
Client: But you’ve had enough.
H: No, I have had enough of the abuse
Client: Yes, you have had enough of working with me.
H: No
Client: Yes and that is why you did it on purpose because you know damn well that there is more than me. And you
know about the others well. That they are attached to you. Can I please finish? You know that there are others, you know that they are attached to you so you say if you phone me again the therapy will be over. Now you are putting them and me in a double bind. Because you know damn well that somewhere along the line someone is going to phone. Somewhere along the line, you know that. Because it happened for four years. And you know that somewhere along the line they are going to write an email. So you say, if you do that –
H: Who wrote the email M?
Client: What are you telling me now?
H: I'm asking you who wrote the email?
Client: Right, ok. This is where this is going.
H: No. I'm asking you
Client: I know exactly where this is going. Can you actually see how abusive you are? Can you actually see what you are doing here?
H: I'm holding a boundary X.
Client: No, it’s not about the boundary. It’s the threat. I don’t mind the boundary. You are not working with the boundary. You don’t know what that means to me. You are not working with that are you? You are telling me therapy is over. Well, I don’t mind the boundaries if you would work with that. What that means for me. You don’t even care about what that means to me. You said to me now, therapy is over.
H: I said we need to work towards an ending.
Client: You want to end the therapy and you were looking for a way out. Because you are a coward.
H: I'm not looking for a way out.
Client: That’s why, you’re a coward. That’s what you are. And you are actually fucking damn abusive right now. For four years you let this unfold, its unfolding the way it should, and now all of a sudden, just like M, “I can’t deal with it anymore. Go away!” You are actually worse than M at least M had the guts to say it but you can’t. You do it in an underhanded way saying “if you phone me again the therapy will be over.” At least M didn’t do that. You are a coward! And you still don’t know what is going on. And I'm supposed to feel safe here. With your threat in the back of my head. If I ever do this and if I ever do that then the therapy will be over. You want me to basically start afresh, like we have never had a therapy before, like I have just come to your office for the first time, there have been no emails no phone calls, that would have been fine. But actually we have got a history. And you just seem to forget about all this. It’s like you are doing it on purpose. You put this boundary in place because you knew that somewhere along the line, because you know me by now, after four years. You knew that I wasn’t able to do that without working with what that means, without helping, without putting something else in place, which you haven’t either. You just totally withdrawn it and hope that I would use it and then you could say “now therapy is over”. You are really nasty. And you call me abusive! Next thing you are going to tell me the email I sent you was abusive! It’s about control isn’t it. You don’t like to be controlled. That’s what it’s about. Tell me what I have done that was so abusive. Tell me I want to know, I have asked you before. And you couldn’t tell me. I want to know what I have done that abused you so terribly that you have to end my therapy. What have I done, I have a right to know. Please tell me!
H: I have told you before.
Client: Please tell me I need to know.
H: I'm not going to go through it again.
Client: You can’t tell me. You haven’t told me before.
H: The emails that were there before. They were abusive and controlling. And I'm not going to go through --
Client: What emails? You haven’t told me.
H: I have told you
Client: No you haven’t
H: I have
Client: No you haven’t
H: I have
Client: You haven’t told me, tell me.
H: The emails that you sent, the abuse in the emails.
Client: What abuse?
H: Read the emails that you sent to me X. I’m not going to go through it.
Client: I deserve to know. You are telling me my therapy is over. I have to know what was abusive.
H: Read the emails that you sent to me.
Client: I'm telling you I don’t know.
H: Well then you need to read them. You need to read the emails.
Client: No, you need to tell me.
H: No, I don’t need to tell you anything.
Client: Yes you do.
H: I have told you .
Client: You need to tell me.
H: You can’t hear me anyway.
Client: I can. Don’t look for excuse not to tell me. I can hear you loud and clear.
H: The emails where you have told me repeatedly , the last lot of emails, that I did not support you, that I
had no feelings, that I was heartless I was cruel I was cold, Oh I don’t know, just a list of all the things that I am not.
That I have done wrong. That I can’t do. That I am, I don’t know I can’t even begin to tell you.
Client: No keep going. I want to know.
H: Well then read the emails.
Client: So that’s abusive yes?
H: Yes. Oh I can’t remember –
Client: You need to remember because this is fucking important to me, this is the end of my therapy. I need to know what I did that was so abusive.
H: Then read the emails
Client: I can read the emails and I still can’t see
H: They were controlling, bullying and abusive.
Client: You can’t do it can you.
H: I'm not going to go through all this
Client: I need to know, you need to tell me what was abusive.
H: I told you that your emails are controlling, bullying and abusive.
Client: In what way? Because I tell you that I don’t feel supported by you? And I feel supported by others? Are you listening to yourself?
H: Yes, well you can’t-
Client: It’s your feeling. This is supposed to happen; I’m supposed to tell you these things.
H: No you’re not! No you’re not supposed to abuse and bully.
Client: I'm not abusing you.
H: You are. You abuse and bully and control.
Client: No I'm not.
H: And I am happy to work with that in the sessions. I was happy to.
Client: No you were not. I'm not controlling you.
H: Yes! It’s bullying and controlling.
Client: No.
H: You don’t know because –
Client: I know!
H: Because the inside world – you are controlled and bullied –
Client: Fuck off
H: No!
Client: Inside world! Suddenly when it suits you there is an inside world. And when it doesn’t suit you “Why are you
phoning?” Suddenly the inside world has totally disappeared. And all the “others” they have disappeared as well. “Why are you phoning me, you know what that means the therapy is over now!” When for 4 years you let me. You encouraged it even. You encouraged it. Because I remember you saying it is better if you phone even if you just phone and say “help” and I call you back. It is better than the emails. You even encouraged it because I wasn’t even able to do it.
H: I didn’t encourage you to phone up and tell me “you are a liar H, you are hiding. I know you are there,
pick up.” That is bullying, controlling and abusive and I will not have it.
Client: Ok, so I can understand that this feels controlling and abusive. I totally understand that but that comes with the territory.
H: No it doesn’t.
Client: Yes it does.
H: No! I'm sorry X it doesn’t, not in my book.
Client: No, obviously not in your book. Obviously not. God knows what is in your books. You know, I understand that
this is frightening and –
H: No it’s not frightening! It’s not frightening!
Client: Well why are you acting like this then?
H: Because I do not want to be bullied. Or abused or controlled.
Client: You can’t look beyond. You encouraged it, you created it with me.
H: No I did not.
Client: Yes you did.
H: I said when you need help not when you need to abuse.
Client: So this is the first time this has happened now? Is that what you are telling me that this is the first time that
you felt abused?
H: No, it’s not the first time that I felt abused.
Client: Well you never told me that before. You never told me before “this needs to stop” now all of a sudden you tell
me this needs to stop or the therapy is over. Why didn’t you tell me before?
H: I told you before, I told you then, if this happens anymore then the therapy is over.
Client: You told me after your break when you came back and said no more emails
H: Exactly! Absolutely!
Client: Stop speaking like that.
H: Absolutely that’s exactly right!
Client: Stop speaking like that.
H: So I'm not allowed to –
Client: No, you don’t even know what you sound like.
H: Well I'm trying to get a word in-
Client: You are not trying anything. You are trying to get rid of me. And that was all planned. Because you know
damn well that—
H: You seem to have all the answers.
Client: I'm looking at the facts. You don’t need to be intelligent to look at facts. Fact is that I have been emailing you
and telephoning you for four years---
H: You broke the boundary
Client: No, I broke your threats!
H: It wasn’t a threat.
Client: Yes it was. You didn’t […] that with me, I didn’t agree to that. I didn’t agree with that. You put a threat down
and said if you phone one more time therapy is over. I never agreed to it and you never discussed with me how it feels for me. It was a threat, you threatened me H. You whiter than white person….. you are obviously feeling such extreme feelings that you don’t feel able to think straight you don’t feel able to sit down and say to me “we need to find a compromise” Either you don’t want to and you totally want out and you don’t even want to be bothered anymore –
H: There isn’t a compromise with the boundary. I made that very clear last time X. In the sessions we could have done, whatever, --
Client: You cannot expect from anyone especially from someone who suffers from the thing you tell me I suffer from, to suddenly “Ok no more emails and no more phone calls” when it has been like this for four years and everyone will agree with me on that.
H: When you put your complaint in then you will be able to do that.
Client: You don’t get it do you. And this is another fear of yours isn’t it? You are just fucking scared of me.
H: I'm not scared of you.
Client: Yes you are H, you are scared. And because you can’t even admit that you are scared you are acting out nonstop. You can’t even see what you are doing. If I was phoned up by someone and they said this I would be scared. And I would feel pissed off, so why aren’t you scared.
H: I wouldn’t be able to tell you that.
Client: There is the problem isn’t it.
H: Obviously.
Client: The problem is all with me isn’t it, because I'm abusive. But I tell you what, you always said “the abuser the abuser” and now the abuser is there and the abuser doesn’t always work the same way you want them to work. They don’t actually keep to boundaries and things like that. It’s because of how you worked with me that and how I trusted you that we were able to get to that place. And now you are telling me this is not acceptable anymore. Instead of saying, we need to find some boundaries, I totally agree with you! But we need to look together how to do it and what's best for the whole and what's best for you and me and the whole of the system. But nothing. Nothing like (17.16 switch) that. “and if you put your complaint in” this is all you are worried about isn’t it… You don’t give a shit about my therapy now and how I feel.
H: I do give a shit about it because that is why I was trying to save it. I was trying to save it because that is the only way we could continue.
Client: H are you trying to tell me that you were trying to safe my therapy by telling me that I’m not allowed to email and phone otherwise --- no – there are two things here going on. Now, the boundaries of not emailing and phoning fine. But then there is a parallel thing going on, the threat of you do, therapy will be over. Why can you not say no more emails no more phone calls this is how it needs to be, why did you feel the need to threaten me?
H: Because that is how it was.
Client: Because you felt threatened.
H: No, because I was telling you how it was.
Client: What kind of answer is that “how it was?”
H: Because this is the boundary of the therapy that I am putting in place. It is the boundary of therapy that I have considered therapeutically was the only way the therapy could continue.
Client: Right by telling me the therapy will finish. You never even said to me “I don’t want any emails or phone calls anymore.”
H: I did, I made it very clear. I wasn’t going to accept any more emails and phone calls and if there were any we would have to work towards an ending.
Client: Yes exactly. That’s what I’m saying. What I mean is, why could you not just say there are no more emails and no more phone calls?”
H: Because I didn’t.
Client: I know that’s what you didn’t and I'm asking you why.
H: Because that’s what I did
Client: Why? Why did you feel the need to threaten me?
H: Because that was the only way I felt therapy could continue.
Client: No you are lying.
H: I was being honest
Client: That’s the only way that YOU could continue.
H: Yes exactly
Client: Yes it’s not the therapy. You. That’s the only way YOU could continue.
H: There is no therapy without me.
Client: I know, but then own it. And don’t say that’s the only way the therapy can work. Because it isn’t. because you
can only work like that. It is the only way YOU can work.
H: The only way I am prepared to work.
Client: Yes, you.
H: Yes, me.
Client: It sounds a bit different to –this is the only way this therapy can work.
H: It is exactly the same outcome.
Client: You are doing the wrong thing H
H: Well that may be so but it is the only thing that was possible to do.
Client: And I remember telling you you want to destroy me
H: I didn’t want to destroy you
Client: And I said to you as soon as I will tell you something nice you will want to destroy it. And I remember you say “I don’t want to destroy it” and as soon as I told you about my clients it went downhill. It has come that far now, from you sending me emails with the scanned pictures of toby and saying nice things
H: That’s the thing I had to offer you and it was abused –
Client: So you were still ok then. And then suddenly, it was the phone call wasn’t it, and the emails during the break, that tipped you over the edge.
H: That was the final straw. Yep. Absolutely. That’s exactly right. That is exactly right.
Client: Yes. So you didn’t act but you re-acted. And you said “well, I feel threatened, so I will threaten you as well.
H: No
Client: Yes
H: No, it wasn’t. I am not going to tolerate this anymore.
Client: And that is ok, but why did you feel the need to threaten me with the end of my therapy? Because you felt powerless that’s why! And you wanted to feel powerful!
H: It was because I was putting a boundary in place that was realistic –
Client: It wasn’t realistic. I have different parts. I have different parts. This is not realistic. It is not realistic
H: It is all that is available.
Client: You are deluded.
H: Well that may be so
Client: You are forgetting something.
H: You choose to believe that.
Client: You are forgetting that there are different parts of me. This is not therapeutic because there are different parts of me and they will phone or email or do whatever
H: Well if there is no body there who can help to contain that then I cannot do that on my own
Client: Yes I totally agree with you. That would be really nice. But you think threatening me with the end of my therapy will actually –
H: I haven’t threatened—
Client: Can I please finish—
H: It’s not a threat
Client: H, you are not getting it. To tell me that you are not going to see me anymore if you ever receive an email or phone call again is a threat. If we just started therapy and this is how it worked fair enough, but we haven’t, we
have history. 4 years of phone calls and emails.
Client: What I’m saying is, you have never actually told me, like you telling me now, this needs to stop. We need to find a way—
H: I did!
Client: No you didn’t!
H: I told you last time that this is how it has to be
Client: You told me last time when? When you came back from the break?
H: Yes.
Client: Yes, that is the first time I heard of that. And what I’m trying to tell you is why did you not tell me before, because it obviously bothered you before from what you are telling me now, so why did you not tell me before hence why did you not instead of threatening me, try to find a way with me together of stopping this or doing something else or different? Why?
H: Because I did it the way that I did it
Client: Yes and this is what I mean you didn’t do it right. And because you didn’t do it right this is the end of my therapy. Because of you H.
H: It was me all along. I haven’t been doing anything right for months.
Client: And this is my repeat! This is from my childhood!
H: Yup!
Client: This is from me, this belongs to me!
H: Hmhm!
Client: Not you.
H: Right.
Client: This is mine.
H: Aha and, yes
Client: And you are making it yours.
H: No I’m not.
Client: Yes you are! “I'm trying to support you so much but nothing I ever do is good enough!” That’s how I felt as a
child, H! It was too much! But you, like you said, you are right, you can change it now, you can put boundaries in, I wasn’t able to do that but you can. But this is my stuff. This is my feeling what you are feeling.
H: 25.18 I understand entirely, I can see why you are so hurt and angry I’m not blind to it
Client: Why am I angry?....These are my feelings. This is my madness. This is my threats this is my pain, this is mine. And you are feeling it but this belongs to me. This is mine and you just made it all about you. And leave me with this now.
H: It wasn’t my choice to leave you with it.
Client: You are wrong. Every single time I get to this point therapists leave. Because they can’t take the feelings. The feelings!
H: Yes, I think you are probably right. I am really sorry that it had to come to this.
Client: This is like, you don’t even want to fight
H: I have no more fight. I tried I have really, really tried and I’m really sorry.
Client: You want to get rid of me
H: No I don’t
Client: You do, this is too much. It is too much for me. And you are just leaving me with it now. This is what happens to me.
H: I know it is and that’s what so tragic and I was trying to avoid.
Client: But you are trying to avoid it by threatening to end the therapy.
H: Because it’s not working. It can’t work like this.
Client: Then we need to find a different way.
H: We can only find a way in the sessions
Client: Yes I agree but you can’t just expect it all to stop. When it’s been like that for 4 years. Give me a chance!
H: If I give you a chance will you stick to it? Will you be able to in all seriousness? Really? Do you really think you can? Do you really think you can work in the sessions?
Client: Why do you suddenly forget about the others now?
H: Do YOU and those who are able to be so vocal, do you think you will be able to contain it during breaks and weekends because that is what is going to have to happen. It is the only way.
Client: This is mine
H: Yes I know it is and I can’t take it away. And I can’t become the same.
Client: Don’t make it yours then.
H: No I won’t make it mine.
Client: This feeling useless and hopeless and nothing is good enough, that’s mine.
H: Yes that’s yours.
Client: This is my stuff
H: I know it is yours.
Client: So don’t take it so personal.
H: I don’t but you try to give it to me.
Client: Yes of course I am.
H: Absolutely! But I’m not taking it on board.
Client: That’s fine but that doesn’t mean that, this is what I do,--
H: I know! And it has to stop! And if I don’t stop it you will never be able to stop it.
Client: Wow, that’s nice, isn’t it.
H: If I don’t stop it, You won’t be able to stop it.
Client: What does that tell me?
H: I don’t know.
Client: It tells me that you don’t actually believe that I can work with you together to find some kind of way.
H: If you can work in the sessions with me we have a chance. If you can work in the sessions. But I will not
and I repeat I will not be controlled outside of the sessions. And that is that. And it has to be that way. It absolutely has to be that way. You can bring anything to the session. You can bring anything at all. But it has to be in the session. You can bring any sort of writing that you like to the session. It can be as abusive as you like to the session. But it can’t work any other way.
Client: Stop calling me abusive.
H: X, I’m not calling you abusive as such and you know that. You know!
Client: Don’t tell me what I know.
H: You know! We have talked about it.
Client: Because I don’t know anything about you anymore.
H: I'm not talking about me I’m talking about you.
Client: Yes, but the things you have said before in the past, you know what I’m talking about, I don’t know what you are talking about, I don’t know you anymore. I don’t. I don’t know you. I used to trust you and you might not believe it but because we trusted you that all this happened.
H: Yes I know there was trust exactly but the trust was hated by the bully and the abuser inside, hated it. Has to be in control, well it is not going to control me! I will not be controlled!
Client: Neither will X, neither will other people, but they don’t threaten me like that.
H: Well this is the, I’m not threatening, I won’t be controlled with emails and phone calls and they are used to control.
Client: That’s ok, I don’t want that either, but other people don’t want to be controlled by me either but they don’t threaten me with going away.
H: I’m not talking about other people
Client: Why does it feel impossible to you to talk to me and find a way together?
H: Because there isn’t another way. I am telling you how it is. For me, for this therapy, for me your therapist. I will not be controlled with emails and phone calls it has got to such a stage that it cannot continue, the therapy cannot continue if that continues. The therapy can continue if that doesn’t continue. And I made that very clear and I’m stating it again.
Client: I hear you but we are not meeting in the middle because I can hear you but --
H: There is no middle!
Client: Exactly that’s the problem, because you are not hearing MY point.
H: I have tried along the way. I started off saying, no emails, I didn’t hold that boundary, that was my mistake. Because I thought, no let me try this, this is important. This is really important. But it didn’t work. Because it got pushed further and further and further and further and further. And that will not continue.
Client: That didn’t happen because of emails.
H: Well it happened because of no boundaries.
Client: Yes! But it didn’t happen because of emails.
H: But it happened because of no boundaries.
Client: This is my issue what I need to work with.
H: Well I have told you how I can work with it. I have tried different ways, I have tried to accommodate, and what I have discovered, is that it is not possible. For me. It is not possible for me to work in that way. I can work in the sessions with you but I cannot work outside of the sessions in an unlimited way. It is not possible for me. I can’t speak for anybody else.
Client: I hear that. Shame I had to waste four years of my life for you to find that out. Because it took you 4 years to realise that you weren’t able to work with that, which means I now have to look for a new therapist. In my training.
H: I’m very, very sorry for that. This is most certainly not what I have wanted.
Client: I can understand that it feels abusive when I phone and say these things which I can’t even remember. That sounds threatening and abusive and I can understand that and I totally agree with that and it shouldn’t be happening and I would like it to stop too but then to say all the other things, like I support you so much but you are telling me I’m not, this is what it’s about -
H: 38.26 In the sessions yes, but not in emails. Not in emails, no. Emails and phone calls were there for help
Client: So basically what you are saying is, it is not what I am saying that is abusive but it is emails and phone calls
that are abusive?
H: I am telling you that I will not be controlled outside of sessions.
Client: Yes! Can we move away from this --
H: No! We are not moving away from this!
Client: Yes I need to move away from this to see what is underneath that. What's this about. You will not be controlled, I can hear you. And I just said to you, I don’t agree with that phone call either, and I wouldn’t like that either. And I would actually like to stop that too because actually there is a lot of shame and humiliation in that. So I would really not like to do that again. So instead of looking for a way to fix that with me together, you decided to do it on your own.
H: Yeah! I am telling you, that is the only way we can work
Client: Yes you are telling me.
H: And maybe you know, if you really, REALLY want to try, and continue to not email and call, maybe there
is a chance we could do something with this. But not, not, if there are going to be emails and phone calls.
Client: What happens to you when you get emails and phone calls?
H: I am not even going to answer that! I am telling you –
Client: I think it is important.
H: It may be –
Client: Why do you think I want to know that?
H: I am telling you, that I am not going to work
Client: I can hear you
H: And that’s a fact.
Client: I would just like to know what happens to you when you get emails and phone calls.
H: Well I don’t think that’s your affair. I’m telling you that it’s not something that I’m going to
Client: I'm not asking you because I want to get a sadistic pleasure out of hearing you suffer, I’m asking this, because this is about me. And what it was like for me as a child. I’m trying to find out what happened to me.
H: That is something that we can talk about and work with but I’m –
Client: Yes I would like to talk about that now
H: Right, ok
Client: That’s why I’m asking you what happens to you when you get emails and phone calls like that
H: You know, in a sense, I guess, in a way, it is a question you don’t even have to ask. If it happened to you as a child then you know—
Client: I have no memory of this. You know that! H what is going on with you? What the hell is happening here?
H: You just told me, this is mine!!
Client: Yes because I read stuff!! I read stuff!!
H: So you don’t need me to tell you.
Client: I know that what you are feeling belongs to me, this is from my past. But WHAT you are feeling I don’t know. And I need to know.
H: I told you, abused, bullied and controlled. I have told you. And no you didn’t have a choice as a child. Absolutely you didn’t. There was nothing you could have done and this is truly horrendous and it should never have been but it isn’t going to help you to be able to do it here. The only way it is going to help you if you are not able to do it here.
Client: It’s very cognitive isn’t it?
H: No its not
Client: Yes it is, it is very much saying, you need to stop this now.
H: It is the only way if anything is going to help you. If you are allowed to continue it it is just the other side of the coin. It is just your own abuse being continued. And it is not therapeutic—
Client: But H, you seem to think that I don’t want the boundaries. You seem to think that I don’t agree with the boundaries but I’m not talking about that I’m talking about the threat you have made. You don’t seem to see the impact this has. This is a huge rupture.
H: I know it is a huge thing.
Client: It is a rupture. And it was that sentence that finished my therapy off.
H: It could either finish the therapy off or it could actually might be the one thing that might make it therapeutic. There are two ways it could go.
Client: There is a third way. I could come here and finish my training and pretend to work. Like I did all these years before I came here. This is another way this could go but then again I shouldn’t really say this because then you will tell me if that is the case you have to find another therapist.
H: No, it’s your therapy to use how you choose. In the framework of the therapy. If you choose not to work you don’t have to work. I’m saying to you the thing that will end the therapy are the emails and phone calls out side of the therapy sessions. Not what happens in them.
Client: No, what will end the therapy is you H. You will end the therapy.
H: No, it will be not me, it will be you breaking the boundary.
Client: No it’s you because, what are you doing with the 4 years where I have been doing this?
I'm using them 4 years with the hope that you will be able to use this boundaried therapy now
Client: What just now?
H: Yup, just now. Because you are doing a counselling course
Client: See and there you have it.
H: No, it’s not there I have it, but actually there is something going on here, that can be controlled out there but not here.
Client: This is where it happens, here. This is beyond me
H: Not out of the sessions.
Client: You, the one I do the work with, I don’t do the work with other people, there will be a totally different attachment towards you, a totally different view towards you than to other people outside
H: Yup! And in the sessions, in the sessions.
Client: Just answering your questions, your statement basically about why are you doing a counselling course. Why is it possible that I’m doing out there and not in here.
H: No I’m saying there are more people there to help contain. If there is someone help contain the counselling training and can see client there is someone there who has an ability to contain some big thoughts and feelings that have to be contained there. They can be contained between sessions if you really want to use this therapy. And we can work with what goes on, you can bring it to the sessions.
Client: Ok, I see now. That’s why when I told you about seeing clients it went downhill. And I was quite right when I told you about seeing clients that’s when it went downhill. Because then suddenly you went “hold on a minute, if she is seeing clients then she is not that bad. Obviously she can do without the emails and obviously she can do without the phone calls.”
H: No it was not that at all. And it absolutely was not that!
Client: Yes it was
H: No!
Client: It was.
H: You can interpret it that way if you like but that is not how it is.
Client: You just told me! You just told me that if there is someone there who can contain other people --
H: I didn’t say that, I said then there is a hope!
Client: Yes a hope! But you are treating me now like this is a fact
H: So how would we know? We need to put it to the test.
Client: Yes exactly! But you are not putting it to the test you---
H: I am!
Client: I totally agree with you we need to put it to the test –
H: I am putting it to the test!
Client: We need to put it to the test with some support but not with a threat, saying “we are putting it to the test now and if it doesn’t work, you are out of here”
H: That’s how it is!
Client: Do you actually know how you just said that? You said that in a really sadistic way. Like you gain pleasure, you are gaining pleasure from this.
H: Absolutely not.
Client: Yes, you are. You are. “Yes absolutely right! That’s exactly how it is!” you should listen to yourself you gain pleasure from this I’m telling you. Have you ever asked yourself what kind of role you are playing in this? Who you represent here for me? What you are repeating for me? This is not a patronizing question I’m just trying to, I’m really interested. Because to me it seems like you don’t even consider this to be some kind of repeat.
H: Everything is a repeat! Everything is a repeat!
Client: So what is it that you are doing that is a repeat for me? What is that, who are you?
H: Well I don’t know, you know that better than I do.
Client: No I'm not. I want to know.
H: Well, I don’t know! How do I know who I am for you right now? How can I know that?
Client: You never wondered? I mean you… you…!!
H: It must be very frustrating to feel you have to teach your therapist everything to know.
Client: No, this is not what this is about. I don’t see you as, I just want to to be honest with me.
H: I have been as honest as I can be.
Client: And when I ask you a question I don’t ask you a question because I want to trip you up or I want to make you feel a certain way, I’m asking –
H: Everything gets turned around and turned around
Client: I'm asking you have you ever wondered what you represent to me
H: Of course I have!
Client: What's that then?
H: I don’t know! I can only imagine.
Client: But this is a very big thing going on here. You are doing something. I'm doing something. Who are you?
H: I'm doing something that has to be done.
Client: That’s on one level. On one logical level I agree with that. We agreed with that now.
H: I’m not sure we have agreed with it
Client: I have agreed with it ok. So now let’s look underneath it. Who are you? Who are you by doing this? Who are you to me?
H: I'm not going to get into this right now.
Client: Why not?
H: Because there is not a negotiated thinking, there is an attacking.
Client: I need to know
H: You need to attack.
Client: No I’m asking you a question. Because I’m desperate.
H: No you are attacking.
Client: No I’m not attacking you. I'm asking you who are you for me?
H: Right now I don’t know because it is impossible to think for me in here because the attacks are coming hard and fast.
Client: Yes, and that is mine too.
H: That’s yours! Everything is yours!
Client: That’s exactly how it was for me.
H: That may well be how it was for you and I am not going to tolerate it.
Client: And you doing this to me, putting threats
H: I'm not going to tolerate the abuse that you did.
Client: And you threating me is—
H: No I’m telling you how it is.
Client: I agree with you, you shouldn’t be tolerating this I’m not saying you should you just don’t hear me. What I’m saying is about the threat and what that represents for me.
H: I understand that it must be excruciating I do but I can’t soften it with anything because that is how it is.
Client: Gosh you know H, “soften” that doesn’t actually go with you.
H: No of course not.
Client: You are just really harsh and cold.
H: I know that is how you experience me right now.
Client: No, because there would have been so many other ways to do this.
H: If I would have been harsh and cold this would have never have happened in the first place.
Client: You are telling me that I am turning everything around and actually you are mind fucking me too
H: I'm not mind fucking you at all, I am being very, very clear. Anything can happen in the sessions there
will be no contact outside the sessions.
Client: We got this now yes, with the boundaries yes.
H: Well then we have something we can work with if that can be held.
Client: But how are you going to work with that?
H: Time is going to tell. We have to see how we work with it, we can’t work with it in two minutes. We are going to have to find that out.
Client: If you refuse to tell me how you feel, because I need that to understand what's going on, --
H: I’m not going to be bullied and cajoled into it!
Client: There you go again! Bullying you! Everything I say is me bullying you!
H: Actually, there is quite an attack going on right at this minute and I understand why but also it means that I can’t respond in a way that I might do in other circumstances.
Client: Only because you can’t do that, doesn’t mean that I’m a bully.
H: Ok, maybe that is the case.
Client: Is my therapy finished now or not?
H: I said that we can talk about this some more so why don’t we just –
END
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